I would prefer the rail line be revived, but in the meantime the trail idea makes a great deal of sense.
I think the supervisors' thoughts about how much a trail would cost the township may be somewhat exaggerated.
I'm quite sure that nearby residents' concern about a trail bringing "more crime into the area" simply has not been demonstrated to be the case in other areas where rail to trail has occurred.

I think the trails would be best we need more places to walk then our streets cause people speed alot around here plus if there's no trains running I just think we need more places to walk

Very nice article, Ms. Kadylak. We embrace both concepts, to preserve the line as a railway as well as build adjacent trails where the opportunity exists.

There is a very good article on Wikipedia about the beleaguered Fox Chase/Newtown line. We urge all residents to read it, as well as access the links at bottom of the article. Great facts and will bring Northampton residents up to speed on this line.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_Chase_Line

Cheers.

Thanks for the comment @Newtown Branch Preservation Foundation. (and @Nicole e curry)

I would love to see more bike and walking trails in Northampton Twp. I think it would add to the attractiveness of our community. Was disappointed with the Board of Supervisors decision.

Yes it's not cool this world is over weight and it's nice to get out Iam a petsitter I would use it alot

Well I still think it would be nice no we don't have alot of parks and some of them do not connect

Was anyone from the mysterious "build our trails" website actually at this meeting? The site encouraged people to attend, but it doesn't sound like they themselves attended. If anyone knows differently, please speak up, but otherwise it looks like quite a setup.

The article didn't actually name any that spoke, only the township manager. Can anyone name the speakers?

Interesting.

Paul Iverson from PA-TEC was there, and spoke on our behalf. He has reported that none of the speakers identified themselves as being affiliated with the trail group. Our efforts to obtain more information from the group have gone unanswered.

I've watched the video as well. Unless I'm missing someone, can you point out which person said that? Or a time point? Thanks!

I am a member of build our trail. There were five of our group members who spoke at the meeting. I would like to clarify that we are not "Hiding our identities" we simply see no reason to communicate with people/groups (newtown branch preservation foundation/stop the newtown trail) that have continually harassed our group members. I do not believe we should collaborate with a group that engages in misrepresentation (see Fred Rosa's post: http://uppersouthampton.patch.com/blog_posts/new-rail-trail-group-questionable and please email my personal email address at capom38258@gmail.com for correspondence with a PA-TEC/SRRSS board member where he admits he is actually Fred Rosa) as well as harassment (a police report was filed however I cannot release his name because he is a minor).

It is unfortunate that the newtown branch preservation foundation felt the need to handle this situation in this way. This could have been more productive but the moral bankruptcy of this group has prohibited that.

Please stop trying to insinuate that our members do not exist in an effort to ascertain names to continue your harassement.

We understand that there can be opposition to the trail but we encourage people to approach us as adults in a professional manner to have a realistic dialoge.

This has all become very crazy. I don't know who Fred Rosa is or patec or what that has to do with the trail, but at the end of the day nobody here has been able to answer the question of who runs Build Our Trail. I've heard some rumors that an on Southampton's EAC is behind it and a guy that owns a fence company, does anyone know anything about that? I've watched the Northampton video over and over and no one said "I'm a member of Build Our Trail". Who runs it? I've tried to attend meetings after they posted invitations on their website, but kept being turned away. This group is very suspect and I would advise township, county and SEPTA officials to cautiously approach a group that has zero credibility, especially since it appears they are harassing minors and hiding behind fake names like Nia Mcharg.

I was one of the speakers from"Build Our Trail" who spoke at the meeting. We welcome all intelligent discourse on this subject and respect the opinions of any residents who have concerns. Unfortunately, the discussion on this forum is being degraded by immature, harassing and libelous behavior. When someone posts a concern using the name of a trail member's dog, the integrity of the concern needs to be sorely questioned.

@ Ashley VanSant - no entity runs "Build Our Trail", nor does any member have any financial stake in its outcome. We've had a total of 3 meetings thus far and have not, nor had any reason to, turn anyone. Please check our Facebook page for meeting information. We'd welcome your presence there!!

We are promoting a project that is of value to residents of your Twp, as well as lower Bucks County by increasing property value, enhanced access to recreational areas and greater community image. We are not asking for any tax dollars to fund either the feasibility study nor construction of the trail, which will be funded by grants.

This is no longer a debate about having an active SEPTA line vs a hiking/biking trail. The agenda item at the meeting was to decide on the Twp contacting SEPTA to ascertain their plans for the line. If SEPTA confirms that they have no future plans for the line, the decision is then whether the Twp wants to keep the line remnants as-is or whether they want to create something of value for the community.

Well Chris and Matt, I see that you both spoke at the meeting, but neither of you identified yourselves as being affiliated with Build Our Trail until now. Why didn't you say this at the meeting, so everyone would know who you represented? You've revealed your identities on a blog, but not in front a township commission? When will we learn who else from Build Our Trail spoke at the meeting?

So let's get this straight - the identities of non-Northampton people pushing an unpopular, taxpayer-funded project ARE important. They are important to the taxpayers, to the politicians, and to government watchdogs, a role my group took several years ago. Transparency is a necessary part of government, and that transparency extends to those advising government and lobbying government. For all we know, your group is a lobbying outfit for a fence company.

So I would have to agree with the characterizations of your group being shady and dishonest. You, on the other hand, but you never mentioned that you're part of a movement in Southampton pushing a trail. You testified as a Northampton resident, yet your name comes up with a Southampton (township) address. That's awfully disingenuous. Your folks (well, we don't know, because you won't tell us) - rather your supporters - went into a township and told them that trees were an eyesore.

It sure looks like all those people in the audience saw your group for what it is and they want no part of your project.

Attention Readers: Please stop flagging the previous comments. They are not going against the Patch Terms of Use, so I will continue to place them back on the site. (http://northampton.patch.com/terms) If this behavior doesn't stop I will end the conversation by no longer allowing comments to be posted on this article. Thanks for your cooperations.

cris , you are miss informed, the motion at northamptons twp meeting was a request to contact septa and to fund a $60,000.00 feasability study funded by northamptontwp tax dollars.

Additionally B.O.T's on line petition is very vague and miss leeds people to think the trail ends in montco. please be honest here, the tracks go to philadelphia don't they?

Actually @thetruth—the meeting was to approve a motion to contact SEPTA to see what their plans were for the rail and how feasible it would be to convert it to a trail.

"We aren't committing to anything at this point. The motion is to contact SEPTA." Supervisor Cunningham said at the meeting, multiple times.

A motion to fund a feasibility study would be a step in the future.

jesseka k, "and how feasible it would be to convert it to a trail" say it any way you like, it still cost $60,000.000 of northampton tax dollars
"We aren't committing to anything at this point" was a reference to the trail not the study. Additionally if it(study) was a future consideration why was it stated in the opening statemment of Supervisor Cunningham ?

I am against the trail what is your position?

I agree with the author that the study is irrelevant at this point. Even asking SEPTA about their plans, as the original motion sought to do, is of questionable value. SEPTA is a political entity. Its long-range plans change almost every month, and are driven by local political forces in the 5 counties. SEPTA's response would likely only say that they have no *immediate* plans, but no further commitment would be made.

The interesting thing here is that now we have a new story - a trail group that apparently misrepresented themselves at a township meeting as living in the township, when in reality they likely don't. I now understand that one member is indeed a fence builder with a financial motive. But I'm curious as to what drives the others to a point where they'd apparently lie to the supervisors and the public. I'm still waiting for Matthew to respond to this, publicly or privately. As I am personally involved in recent efforts to restore rail service, I'm very interested to hear what drives such shadowy behavior.

I'm also curious as to what exactly is going on between Matthew and this "minor." I suspect we'll hear more down the road.

The floor is yours, Matthew. You opened the door.

@JohnScott I was unaware that you were so versed in my living situation. You have absolutely no idea about my living situation and please don’t insinuate that you do. Nothing I said was untrue. Again, you are personally attacking someone instead of actually debating the topic in an intelligent manner. Yet another instance of why we do not want to be associated with groups that personally attack and denigrate others.

As to what “exactly is going on between Matthew and this minor” I addressed that in my previous comment. Harassment FROM the minor TO someone in our group, resulting in a police report being filed.

As I stated before, which was apparently overlooked: We understand that there can be opposition to the trail but we encourage people to approach us as adults in a professional manner to have a realistic dialogue.

So then, do you live in Northampton township or not?

Also, exactly how did a minor harass a member of your group, if you've never identified any of them until now? How did this minor even know who to harass? Were you involved with him prior to forming your group?

You say your group members hide their identities to prevent being harassed, and yet you claim you were being "harassed" anyway, despite none of your identities being known. If you're telling the truth, somehow this minor knew something about you before you went public. And, importantly, somehow your group members anticipated this harassment at the inception of your group, since you were anonymous from the beginning for "fear of harassment."

My guess? Members of your group were actively seeking out this minor and possibly others and provoked them. You knew them, under false pretenses, when you started your group, and you attempted to bait them into "harassing" you. You were probably representing yourselves as something/someone else, and that's why your hiding you identities now. That's just my guess - I'll bet the truth is even stranger, so let's hear it.

I'm sure you'll write back and say, "See, this is the type of harassment we're afraid of." It's not harassment. We simply want to know who spoke in Northampton last week at a public meeting.

Has anyone ever been on the Perkiomen Trail in Montco? I used to live out there and that go a lot of use, goes near/thru some pretty pricey developments and was well used by people exercising or commuting to Oaks and Valley Forge and more. It goes right behind the SEI Investments property. Been to the Schuykill River Trail in VF park or taken it down to Manyunk? The upper part of the Perkiomen Trail isn't paved so you didn't have to worry about people on roller blades mowing you over - though it was a horse trail so you did have to watch your step. It'd be great to see something like that here. And yes, I am a Northampton resident.

@thetruth - Thanks to Jessica for clearing most of your concern. The key point that I think many are not aware of is that the trail organization IS NOT asking for any northampton twp tax dollars to fund either the feasibility study, nor the construction of the trail.

Any funding would come through grants through organizations like the Dept of Conservation and Natural Resources (DCNR) and Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission (DVRPC). We can not apply for any grants until the owner of the line (SEPTA) officially states their intent for the property, which is all we were looking to achieve from the board meeting.

@John Scott - How is SEPTA's official position on the continued use of the rail line irrelevant? How would you know what they would say? I would think everyone in the community would be on board with restored train service, but it looks that isn't going to happen now or in the future. The choice then becomes do you keep the abandoned and overgrown remnants or turn it into something the community can use. Why would you be against that, especially if tax dollars are not be requested?

There is nothing shadowy about our organization at all, so please stop trying insinuate it's some kind of secretive cabal. Our meetings are open to anyone and are clearly posted on our Facebook and website. I wish your group well with your efforts to restore rail service, but your attempts to denigrate our group are not only unwarranted, I believe they demean you and your cause.

Chris, your meeting postings never provide a location, and to my knowledge, the location is never offered upon request. None of my emails with your group have ever been returned, that I can tell. Others have reported that your group does not reveal the meeting location unless the interested party provides their address. Ironic, isn't it, that you ask for identifying information of those interested, but hide your own.

I hate to break the news to you, but DVRPC is taxpayer funded, so you ARE asking for tax dollars. Nice try though. If you are really just looking for an official statement from SEPTA, why don't you just ask them? Why involve a township that apparently none of you live in?

Anyway, is Matthew a Northampton resident, or will he continue to deflect on that question?

I'd like to hear Mr. Matthew answer the question too. I've tried to join and attend meetings, but every time I ask they demand I provide my home address, be a Southampton resident, and then threaten to have their lawyer contact me.

From BOT "we have been advised by our attorney that any future correspondence with you be made directly through our attorney. We have forwarded your message to our attorney's office and should they feel appropriate, they will contact you directly."

I sure have. I contacted Matthew, at the address above, and I contacted BOT several days ago for an article. Others have contacted your group, and apparently you require 1) an address and 2) Southampton residency. I'll let those others fill in the details.

The irony - a group that requires Southampton residency, but goes to Northampton and claims they live there. Sure sounds like a secretive, shady group to me. Why would you need the address of people who want to attend your "public" meetings, including those of minors? What were you planning to do with these addresses?

Anyway, still waiting to hear which township Matthew really lives in.

Well I'm not sure why Jesseka is moderating my comments out, but BOT refused to allow me to attend the meeting until I gave my address. Every public meeting I've gone to has visitors sign in AFTER I arrive at the meeting. So to date, BOT has discriminated against me. And the question still remains unanswered, where does Matthew live? We still don't know who the mysterious BOT poster on this thread is, its the same murky responses I've gotten by e-mail. Northampton and Southampton Township residents beware: This group is up to no good, they've not fully disclosed who they are, their meetings are held in secret, and according to Mr. Scott's information, they are lying about their residency at official township meetings. On top of that, they discriminate.

Let me guess - if I email you again, you'll say I was harassing you. Let's be adults here.

Any word on Matthew's real residency? Or can we assume he misrepresented himself to the Northampton supervisors and move on?

Next question - where were those meetings held? If they were indeed open to the public, I'm sure the location isn't a secret after the fact, is it?

By the way, where are all the other messages going? I was notified of a few responses, and they're now gone.

jesseka k, I asked your position because it seems to slightly favor the trail.( ie: I asked cris w., two questions, he obviously favors the trail, but you chimed in and answered for him.
In the name of civility we can agree to disagree over "feasability", "studies" & $60,000.00. let the readers decide for themselves by watching replay @northamptontownship.com.
Additionaly, lets be truthful here, do you believe the trail photo at the top of this page is what the northampton trail would look like? Do you realize there is over 200 adjacent homes. Why are there no homes in this picture? and where are the fences that will be installed to protect the The home owners?
In the name of truthfulness and fairness I ask you to remove the pics

Hi Jesseka - thanks for restoring the comments. I won't reveal anyone's full name or address, and I won't ask Matthew again. Have the people flagging comments actually participated in this thread? If so, is it possible to post their screen names? The cover-up is as interesting as the crime sometimes.

Matthew, as i mentioned, out of respect for other viewers, i won't badger you about your residency. However, if you were indeed the speaker the other night, your deflection and silence on your residency speaks for itself. If you did in fact deceive Northampton township, good luck next time.

Any word on the time and LOCATION of the next trail meeting? It sounds like quite a few people here would like to attend.

cris w, In the name of civility we can agree to disagree over "feasability", "studies" & $60,000.00. let the readers decide for themselves by watching the replay @northamptontownship.com
by the way, you never answered the second question.
the B.O.T's on line petition is very vague and misleads people to think the trail ends in montco. please be honest here, the tracks go to philadelphia don't they? and do you want us to believe the trail will never connect to philly?

@thetruth - there is no gray area in regards to the agenda item, it was strictly a motion to outreach to SEPTA to get their official position. Speakers used the word "feasible" and referenced the "feasibility study" costs, but those references don't change the nature of the agenda item. No money was or will be requested for a feasibility study by BOT.

There is nothing deceptive about the petition and if the trail is completed, it would end in Southampton with a possibility of it being extended near Bryn Athyn at the farthest. There are no plans to utilize the entire rail that extends in to Philadelphia. Click out this link (http://connectthecircuit.org/#/) that details all existing and proposed trails in SEPA. There is always the possibility another trail project would connect with the Newtown branch trail, but that is not in the scope of what BOT is trying to accomplish.

@John Scott - "I hate to break the news to you, but DVRPC is taxpayer funded, so you ARE asking for tax dollars. Nice try though."

The money is provided by grants through DVRPC, with funding through the William Penn Foundation, which are specifically set aside to fund these specific types of projects. I specifically was correcting the fallacy that BOT was there requesting Northampton Twp tax dollars and that other services/programs would suffer as a result.

" If you are really just looking for an official statement from SEPTA, why don't you just ask them? Why involve a township that apparently none of you live in?"

Because SEPTA will only provide that specific type of declaration to a municipality and that declaration is needed before any grant can be applied for.

So BOT is attempting to build another Abington-style trail, running from nowhere to nowhere. That's awesome. Or, you've taken a page from the highway builder's playbook - build enough disconnected sections, and sooner or later taxpayers will be asked to pay for the "missing links" to complete the "circuit."

While I don't share truth's concerns about connecting to Philadelphia, I do question why so much time goes into building a "Circuit". The "Circuit" has now become the furthest reaching infrastructure project in the region, while the economy continues to tank. DVRPC, who you think will be funding your trail, has effectively said we will add NO rail transit capacity for about two decades. None. Meanwhile, since we can't afford a rail line, let's waste all our money (oh right, it's not our money, it's money from the grant tree) on a trail system.

Take a look around at the economy and the general lack of competitiveness in our region. Show me another region that has dispensed with ALL rail expansion in favor of a massive recreational trail system. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I think you have your priorities wrong.

cris w. ok, the agenda item was listed as "discussion on rails to trails project" however, the opening statement was to contact septa and conduct a feasibilty study.
so this statement is not consistent with the agenda item. Why? also under questioning it was stated by 2 other supervisors the study cost was $60,000.00.
no board member desputed that number. It would then be reasonable to conclude this was peviously discussed by the board prior to the meeting during their exective session. Sure once the cat was out of the bag there was some back pedaling but lets face it appears that atleast one supervisor was trying to slip this through.

news flash northampton has always been a hold out for any type of activty along the railline. so, instead of going there last, will go there first, then the rest of the twps from philly to newtown will connect the dots for us . sound familiar?

Q. how many miles of fence would that be?

Truth - we have some info that may help you. Contact me privately if you'd like.

john s. thanks but no thanks. I don't plan on wasting any more time with the spindoctors or the madamm blogger. as far as northampton is concerned, the trail is dead. But please don't take my word for it, watch the replay at northamptownship.com and see for yourself.

as expected "you can't handle the truth" good bye

The truth is not always convenient, is it. You'll note, though, that a member of our group PA-TEC, Paul Iverson, spoke out AGAINST the trail at that meeting. Our position has never changed.

I wholeheartedly agree - that trail is DEAD as far as Northampton goes. Those "eyesore" trees will live another day, after all. The residents (those that REALLY live there, anyway) have spoken.

Good luck to you.

Why would we want to convert the rail line to a trail for public use and enjoyment??? It is much better in its current state of overgrown vegetation and strewn with trash! You trail people are crazy!

i see both points but am lost. if the trail people's purpose is to build a trail over the RR line in southampton and northampton but neither town want it, where do they go from here? even if they can get money from a grant or private financer, how can they advance anything without the township, the county and septas OK? am i missing a step?

Amills,

No, you are not missing a step. There is no local support in either township for this project. Most of the "supporters" in Northampton turned out to live somewhere else. With neither truth nor local interest on the side of the "trailers," the project won't get very far. It's unusual for grant money to be used when the community is adamantly opposed to the project - those offering the grant money want to unite communities, not divide them, so they'll put the money into more worthwhile projects. Taxpayer funding is even less realistic.

As you can see, the trailer folks have largely packed up and gone home (wherever that is.) We attempted to get more information about upcoming meetings, but it appears they've all been cancelled.

Stay tuned - I believe there are efforts afoot to clean some of the storied trash from the area without otherwise disturbing the vegetation.

Thank you for once again showing why we refuse to work with your group, using childish nomenclature to demean. But I guess that is to be expected from a group that refuses to have any morals and lie when it suits their interests. We are not the first group to experience your harassing tactics. The following excerpts can be found at: http://pa-tec.org/doc/DVRPC_RCC_Questions052011.pdf

“To address your other question, Jon ... there has been some very rude correspondence sent from Paul Iverson to Barry Seymour, on behalf of PA-TEC. The tone of the email was enough to make me lose respect for the way your group functions. I suggest that you address that issue before sending out more emails.”

“Frankly, if this is yet another attempt to gain committee support for an R8 extension under the guise of advocating for a trail, it's a waste of committee time and energy. I am willing and available to use my access to these people to help give your interests a fair hearing. I will only do so if and when the harassment by PA‐TECH stops and when civil and productive dialogue can take place. Otherwise, you should not expect any support from me to include this issue in committee deliberations.”

To date we have over a 1,000 signatures advocating FOR the trail, roughly 1/3 of them from Northampton along the abandoned rail line. No meetings have been cancelled and you made no attempt to gather information.

I am sure all of this information will not be read and that I will be questioned again about my residency by a group that has no members that live in the township.

Good luck with your efforts on cleaning up the trash along the line, except for the fact that you will be trespassing once again on land that does not belong to your group. Be sure to let SEPTA know as that is a huge liability for them.

We understand that there can be opposition to the trail but we encourage people to approach us as adults in a professional manner to have a realistic dialogue.

Additionally, none of the townships have formally voted against a rails to trail project. Actually, it is mentioned several times in the Upper Southampton comprehensive plan and Northampton open space plan. The resolutions that were signed by townships supporting train restoration were signed prior to SEPTA stating their intentions for the line. You should give SEPTA a call and have them inform you of their plans.

Matthew - the material on our website is copyrighted. You are welcome to link to it, but you are NOT welcome to copy it.

In any case, that was Jim Richardson peddling influence. Paul Iverson merely asked Mr. Seymour a few questions. If asking a public official a question about our tax dollars is harassment, well, they better brace themselves. You too - since you also see fit to sign up the taxpayers for your backyard extension.

So now that you've crawled back out of the woodwork, did you really lie to Northampton about your residency?

By the way, Matthew, we've noticed many of your signatures, such as Nia NcHarg, are fakes. Nia McHarg was a Patch poster on many threads before somebody outed her. She doesn't exist - it's a play on the name Ian McHarg, a famous landscape architect the most "planning" professionals are familiar with. Patch readers may remember her inflammatory, harassing, and condescending comments about busing in Centennial School District.

Wanna share your list? Or just talk about it and we'll accept that you're not deceiving us like you apparently deceived Northampton?

One more thing - you've copied one of Jim Richardson's many outbursts against PA-TEC and others. He felt we were asking too many questions.

Apparently, a Common Pleas Judge felt differently, as PA-TEC's legal team recently prevailed in a lawsuit against SEPTA over the same issue.

sorry if i caused problem. had no idea this was such controversial issue. would be nice to see that old rr line get some kind or usage as either a trainline of trail. i was just curious how many political hurdles have to be conquered to achieve either goal. u think the supevisors would feel differently if they did not have to pay for it